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welcome to shattered reality with your

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hosts Kate Valentine and furs prepare to

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have your paradigm shifted in the truths

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questioned and now shattered reality

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well hi hi ferocious and here we are

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again yes Kate here we are

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here we are at shattered reality and

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today is May 9th 2017 got a slate that

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that time and place and we have a really

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really very very interesting show we

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love to present edge science here on

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channel reality because that's what our

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podcast is really all about is is edge

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science and this is a subject which is a

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particular interest to me and I've

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written a number of kind of layman's

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sort of thoughts about the study of

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panspermia as you know on my on my blog

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and we've discussed it a little bit on

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the webcast here so today we have dr.

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Milton Wainwright well professor Milton

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Wainwright okay PhD as a doctor of the

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University of Sheffield I think that

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they title things differently over there

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in the UK but I see that's what we have

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for today and he has been a person who

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has worked with one of my favorites

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Chandra Wickramasinghe so we have him

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here on a Skype line right now what

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would you like to how would you like to

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be spoken to how shall we call you today

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yeah just called me Milton well that's a

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very friendly answer and thank you

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because art art podcast is very

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conversational it's 10:00

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the evening to me so I may be a little

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bit drowsy oh I hope not

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we're sorry to keep you up but we're

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absolutely thrilled to have you on the

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podcast absolutely thrilled you started

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out as a botanist you were a small-town

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or semi-rural young man in it in a town

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in western England in the UK is that

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correct yeah I am I was brought up in a

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coal mining village in South Yorkshire

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which is the north of England and I was

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very interested in natural history as a

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kid I used to roam the fields and

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looking for insects caterpillars and and

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flowers and things and I had the great

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privilege to go to University to study

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botany that was way back in 68 1968 so

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from then I became a microbiology

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studying bacteria well with a background

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like that it's no wonder that you expect

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life-forms to exist other than on this

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planet I mean look at the plethora of

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life-forms you find just in a small walk

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through the woods or a drop of seawater

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or lake water I guess that's right I

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used to take little drops of pond water

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and look at the Paramecium the amoeba

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and so on and so I was really hooked

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from a very early age you know and I've

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kind of been a biologist all my life

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really

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what strange dad great because I suppose

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from a coal mining community you know

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not many kids were interested in these

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things but I I seem to naturally

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gravitate to Natural History

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I was just wondering did you ever note

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of any fossils in any other call that

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came out in fact I have a couple of

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these I didn't see any in fact I did I

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tell I tell fibs I saw a few ferns when

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we were kids when we we have to burn the

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coal of course lutely and I couldn't

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remember seeing some large ferns in the

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coal yeah and the cold dated back to God

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knows when so really young men I mean

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this planet if you had looked back 350

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million years ago you

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thought you're on an alien planet it was

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so different yeah so boy so you have

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quite a background in just the wide

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dispersion of various life-forms and I

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think that as we get into the podcast

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you are familiarity with these very tiny

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microbial and sub microbial life forms

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it begins to play very importantly in

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your story but let's not get ahead of

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ourselves what I would like to do is to

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talk about first of all exactly what

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panspermia is and how that differs from

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another term which is pan psychism that

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everything is conscious in the universe

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including stars so I think that pan

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psychism is what drew me initially to

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the idea of panspermia so could you give

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us an expert's view on what exactly

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panspermia and neo panspermia are Yeah

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right I don't know about the other term

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about being consciousness but pet

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is a very straightforward idea most

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scientists believe that life on earth

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began here that chemicals got together

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in a warm pond as Darwin would say and

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these chemicals got together to make

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proto life early life and then this

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early life became microbial and then

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evolved into humans and so on we we all

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know this story this is called the

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chemical theory of evolution now people

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are interested in panspermia said well

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this didn't happen on earth necessarily

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it could have happened here but the main

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source of life was from outer space that

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organisms are proto organisms came from

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elsewhere and they were continually

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coming in all the time but obviously the

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her new hot now as soon as the earth

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cooled then these organisms could

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develop on earth and spread multiply and

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then they evolved into the full range of

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life on Earth so basically it's saying

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that life came from space okay but

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microbial sorts of life we're not

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speaking Heroes fully developed aliens

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or anything

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we're not talking about aliens now we're

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talking about a straightforward

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scientific theory but it just sort of

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begs the question though does it because

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I mean whether life began here or

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somewhere else

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it still began and philosophical point

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you know the human mind is wired to

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think in terms of beginnings and ends so

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quite naturally we think of life must

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beginning mm-hmm now it may well be that

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life was eternal now don't want to be

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ripped there this is not a religious

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notion it's just a philosophical notion

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that maybe life always was but we can't

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kind of get our minds around that

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because we think of being born dying

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getting married getting divorced

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starting a degree we're thinking - were

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hardwired to think in terms of

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beginnings and ends mm-hmm so it's

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almost impossible for us to get around

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the idea that life may always have been

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but that's a possibility mm-hmm well yes

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that is a possibility

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by all means and just to clear up what I

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meant by pants psychism for those

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listeners and something to the effect

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that many of the quantum physicists

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maintain especially Max Planck who said

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basically consciousness is fundamental

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you can't get behind consciousness and

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there are people out there including

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some astronomers I believe that that

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think that heavenly bodies such as

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neutron stars might have a form of

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consciousness and of course that this is

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a philosophical motion besides that that

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is very very akin to animism and in on

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earth people who believe in animism so

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just to clear that up a little bit I

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guess to a regular kind of scientist

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although I'm kind of a bit of a heretic

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I guess that would be you know quite

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well left field as you say over there

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but panspermia is a very straightforward

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scientific concept it's not to do with

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aliens or anything complex basically

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we're just saying that life came now

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Neil panspermia is a term that I coined

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saying that not only did life come and

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originated from space it's coming all

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the time so as you step outside the door

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this

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whatever all day long you will be

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potentially covered in microorganisms

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from space and this is what we've

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concentrated our research on this idea

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of neo neo meaning new of course so that

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life is coming in all the time not just

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that it originated but it's coming in

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all the time

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good well listen the question that I

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want to raise or this point that I want

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to make is that my personal interest in

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panspermia came a long time ago I guess

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it was in the 90s when it was somebody

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who you have worked with that Chandra

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Wickramasinghe

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when he was talking about the red rain

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that fell on parts of India and in the

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Indian Ocean

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can we go to a little bit to that and

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your your interactions with dr. wick

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aramis Singh fine yeah Chandra was

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working with Fred Hoyle way back in the

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seventies in fact in fact at that time

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they were publishing most of their

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papers in the major scientific journal

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Nature and this was a new idea and

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people were quite open to the idea as

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time went by they produce more and more

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evidence but paradoxically it became

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less and less fashionable so they really

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had to work over the last twenty thirty

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years to kind of get this idea accepted

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by scientists now I never met Fred Hoyle

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fair dial of course a famous astronomer

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mathematician should have got the Nobel

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Prize but was denied it I never actually

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met him although I I heard him you have

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a lecture in Sheffield many years ago

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but Chandra and I had been working now

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for about 17 years because I first

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started working with Chandra just just

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after 2000 I think and basically what

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happened was very interesting I had been

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lecturing on panspermia to my students

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and taking an interest in it but I

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assume that Chandra would have all the

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microbiologists they ever needed because

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people would be interested in this

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fantastic idea so I never contacted him

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but I wrote a letter there was a lot of

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criticism of his work Fred Hoyles work I

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wrote a letter to a

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scientific journal saying this guy's you

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know extremely intelligent the idea of

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panspermia is very scientific etc

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defending the idea and to my amazement

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Chandra emailed me and said would you

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like to work with me cool

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I said Wow you know to my mind every

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microbiologist in the world would want

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to do this but he said no basically

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because of the question of of their

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career etc their status they didn't want

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to get involved in this it was too off

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the wall to kind of alien associated and

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so on so I was more than delighted to go

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down to Cardiff where he was working and

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joined this team and we worked now for

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17 years or more well that's fantastic I

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I have not only have admiration for what

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you're doing but I have enormous

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admiration for both sir Fred Hoyle and

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Chandra Wickramasinghe now sir Fred yeah

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what so neat the Royal astronomer at one

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time I don't think he was but he was

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extremely it was he extremely well I

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can't you know I honestly don't know

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that but he was certainly very eminence

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a very eminent science fiction writer of

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course as well wrote the black the book

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the black cloud which is can still be

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read and enjoyed today so Fred Hoyle was

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a genius beyond beyond all doubt now

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Chandra has been working on this idea

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now for a world best part of 20 or 30

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odd years and he's come in for a

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tremendous amount of ill-informed

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criticism mmm-hmm even racism he comes

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00:12:54,210 --> 00:12:50,890
from Sri Lanka and he's add he showed me

274
00:12:55,380 --> 00:12:54,220
letters of abusive kind of interaction

275
00:12:57,060 --> 00:12:55,390
god knows what it gets on the internet

276
00:12:57,810 --> 00:12:57,070
because these were letters that's

277
00:13:00,470 --> 00:12:57,820
terrible

278
00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:00,480
a lot of trolling and so on and so forth

279
00:13:08,550 --> 00:13:03,490
very nasty racist comments because of

280
00:13:10,770 --> 00:13:08,560
course panspermia is very badly placed

281
00:13:13,290 --> 00:13:10,780
in the sense that it attacks always

282
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:13,300
seems to attack religion and science or

283
00:13:19,740 --> 00:13:16,210
at least Darwinism right so the

284
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:19,750
doughiness don't like it and the extreme

285
00:13:23,430 --> 00:13:22,210
religious people don't like it so your

286
00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:23,440
bang in the middle and you get a lot of

287
00:13:28,309 --> 00:13:27,010
criticism from either side well your

288
00:13:32,550 --> 00:13:28,319
work

289
00:13:38,939 --> 00:13:32,560
in the last years less recent years has

290
00:13:42,329 --> 00:13:38,949
been very very clever very wonderful

291
00:13:46,019 --> 00:13:42,339
ideas that a person could do without a

292
00:13:48,749 --> 00:13:46,029
lot of money I understand and it

293
00:13:52,139 --> 00:13:48,759
involves weather balloons and if I were

294
00:13:55,949 --> 00:13:52,149
to say in very plain language you send

295
00:14:00,960 --> 00:13:55,959
something like a disk drive you know in

296
00:14:04,350 --> 00:14:00,970
a an envelope which is impermeable until

297
00:14:07,019 --> 00:14:04,360
it reaches the stratosphere up on a a

298
00:14:09,449 --> 00:14:07,029
weather balloon at which point it opens

299
00:14:14,189 --> 00:14:09,459
up and reveals something like a petri

300
00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:14,199
dish and then the organisms are captured

301
00:14:18,930 --> 00:14:17,199
and then it's almost go ahead almost

302
00:14:23,699 --> 00:14:18,940
there but not quite okay let us know

303
00:14:25,980 --> 00:14:23,709
yeah our our initial work was done with

304
00:14:27,809 --> 00:14:25,990
scientists in India now the Indians are

305
00:14:28,379 --> 00:14:27,819
very good at sending balloons into the

306
00:14:30,269 --> 00:14:28,389
stratosphere

307
00:14:31,860 --> 00:14:30,279
they send massive balloons we were

308
00:14:34,259 --> 00:14:31,870
sending massive blooms a massive

309
00:14:36,629 --> 00:14:34,269
payloads and we will find him Adri

310
00:14:39,059 --> 00:14:36,639
bacteria in the stratosphere now for

311
00:14:41,249 --> 00:14:39,069
various reasons we were kind of

312
00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:41,259
sidelined out of that work make basic

313
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:42,970
because we couldn't find the funding in

314
00:14:47,819 --> 00:14:45,850
the UK to continue with the work so I

315
00:14:49,710 --> 00:14:47,829
was in a bit of a loose end and then I

316
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:49,720
got an email from a friend of mine

317
00:14:53,309 --> 00:14:51,490
saying that within the University of

318
00:14:55,650 --> 00:14:53,319
Sheffield in the engineering department

319
00:14:57,329 --> 00:14:55,660
of all places there were two PhD

320
00:14:59,759 --> 00:14:57,339
students who were making money out of

321
00:15:02,309 --> 00:14:59,769
little business send him balloons to the

322
00:15:04,139 --> 00:15:02,319
stratosphere now what what they were

323
00:15:06,660 --> 00:15:04,149
doing and they still do is say you

324
00:15:08,550 --> 00:15:06,670
wanted to propose to your loved one you

325
00:15:10,860 --> 00:15:08,560
could have a little proposal sent into

326
00:15:12,329 --> 00:15:10,870
the interspace it would be filmed and

327
00:15:15,269 --> 00:15:12,339
you could show this at your wedding you

328
00:15:16,710 --> 00:15:15,279
know ah he proposed to me in space so

329
00:15:19,620 --> 00:15:16,720
you pay a couple hundred dollars for

330
00:15:21,269 --> 00:15:19,630
this it's very good way of making a

331
00:15:23,670 --> 00:15:21,279
little bit of money so the students were

332
00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:23,680
doing this and I got them into my office

333
00:15:29,340 --> 00:15:26,110
and I said this is fantastic

334
00:15:31,199 --> 00:15:29,350
are you interested in sending these

335
00:15:34,259 --> 00:15:31,209
balloons to the stratosphere and doing

336
00:15:36,059 --> 00:15:34,269
scientific study and they said yeah

337
00:15:37,620 --> 00:15:36,069
we're interested obviously you have to

338
00:15:40,639 --> 00:15:37,630
pay us a little bit of money to cover

339
00:15:42,319 --> 00:15:40,649
the costs so I did and we then

340
00:15:45,170 --> 00:15:42,329
sat down a thought of an experiment now

341
00:15:46,609 --> 00:15:45,180
I want to do it simple and cheap as

342
00:15:49,269 --> 00:15:46,619
before because the large balloons from

343
00:15:51,259 --> 00:15:49,279
India were costing us around about

344
00:15:54,079 --> 00:15:51,269
three-quarters of a million dollars per

345
00:15:55,579 --> 00:15:54,089
flight Wow nope you can see that that

346
00:15:58,009 --> 00:15:55,589
was getting pretty ridiculous

347
00:15:59,809 --> 00:15:58,019
yeah though what we thought about I

348
00:16:02,689 --> 00:15:59,819
don't know exactly thought about it was

349
00:16:06,799 --> 00:16:02,699
we would make a box and put into this

350
00:16:09,079 --> 00:16:06,809
box essentially a CD drawer and we could

351
00:16:11,449 --> 00:16:09,089
then open the CD drawer as you say in

352
00:16:14,660 --> 00:16:11,459
the stratosphere at any height we chose

353
00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:14,670
by GPS and everything's sterile of

354
00:16:19,249 --> 00:16:16,290
course there's no point doing it if it's

355
00:16:21,410 --> 00:16:19,259
not sterile and the drawer would open

356
00:16:24,919 --> 00:16:21,420
and we put these little stubs little

357
00:16:26,989 --> 00:16:24,929
kind of round objects which we could

358
00:16:29,449 --> 00:16:26,999
then put into an electron microscope a

359
00:16:31,730 --> 00:16:29,459
very high-powered microscope directly

360
00:16:34,460 --> 00:16:31,740
now anything that fell from the

361
00:16:36,350 --> 00:16:34,470
stratosphere onto the stubs that the

362
00:16:39,259 --> 00:16:36,360
draw would close and it would be

363
00:16:40,790 --> 00:16:39,269
contained within the box so there was no

364
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:40,800
way that you get contamination it was

365
00:16:45,379 --> 00:16:43,410
old them extremely sterile we would then

366
00:16:48,439 --> 00:16:45,389
take the box to a clean room where

367
00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:48,449
there's no microbes there's no complaint

368
00:16:55,540 --> 00:16:52,800
area we'd open the box and we put the

369
00:16:58,610 --> 00:16:55,550
stubs into the microscope and then we'd

370
00:17:01,879 --> 00:16:58,620
do a vision of the surface to see what

371
00:17:06,409 --> 00:17:01,889
was there and what did you find

372
00:17:08,809 --> 00:17:06,419
well let me admit that I kind of wasn't

373
00:17:10,669 --> 00:17:08,819
hoping to find very much I thought okay

374
00:17:14,059 --> 00:17:10,679
I'll do this because it's there as it

375
00:17:18,939 --> 00:17:14,069
were and when I looked at my screen the

376
00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:18,949
students brought this into my my office

377
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:22,770
and I was just gobsmacked absolutely I

378
00:17:29,450 --> 00:17:27,329
just gasped with amazement because here

379
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:29,460
we had some very unusual organisms

380
00:17:36,230 --> 00:17:32,970
remember before we'd been catching kind

381
00:17:38,810 --> 00:17:36,240
of ordinary bacteria but here we had

382
00:17:42,620 --> 00:17:38,820
some very strange organisms now I've

383
00:17:45,289 --> 00:17:42,630
been a microbiologist biologist I guess

384
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:45,299
for 40 odd years now if you include my

385
00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:47,610
childhood I said suppose after century

386
00:17:52,279 --> 00:17:49,770
50 years I'd never seen anything like

387
00:17:53,990 --> 00:17:52,289
this and believe me I know my microbes

388
00:17:56,120 --> 00:17:54,000
after all that time

389
00:18:00,560 --> 00:17:56,130
I've never seen anything like it and I

390
00:18:03,290 --> 00:18:00,570
was just absolutely amazed just a quick

391
00:18:07,310 --> 00:18:03,300
question did you do a control send up a

392
00:18:09,310 --> 00:18:07,320
CD that didn't open and came back yeah

393
00:18:13,490 --> 00:18:09,320
yeah we do that we did that we found

394
00:18:15,050 --> 00:18:13,500
Audrey kind of pieces of grass pollen on

395
00:18:18,530 --> 00:18:15,060
the outside of the box we always find

396
00:18:20,810 --> 00:18:18,540
that but nothing inside so the contents

397
00:18:23,300 --> 00:18:20,820
inside remained totally sterile on the

398
00:18:25,970 --> 00:18:23,310
control flight and when you say was the

399
00:18:30,620 --> 00:18:25,980
differential was that just shape or was

400
00:18:32,750 --> 00:18:30,630
a morphology or was a shape slightly

401
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:32,760
larger than bacteria around about 10 to

402
00:18:39,710 --> 00:18:35,970
40 microns understands the kind of size

403
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:39,720
differential and very unusual shape so

404
00:18:44,540 --> 00:18:42,810
we're talking about morphology now the

405
00:18:46,820 --> 00:18:44,550
question is how do we know they are

406
00:18:48,590 --> 00:18:46,830
biological because when we do this we

407
00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:48,600
get a lot of cosmic dust we get little

408
00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:50,850
bits of cosmic dust which are in organic

409
00:18:56,210 --> 00:18:53,910
they're made up of silicon iron and on

410
00:18:58,400 --> 00:18:56,220
the electron microscope which can look

411
00:19:02,360 --> 00:18:58,410
at very small objects we have a special

412
00:19:04,490 --> 00:19:02,370
machine called an EDX or an EDX which we

413
00:19:07,010 --> 00:19:04,500
can put a crosshair onto the particle

414
00:19:12,350 --> 00:19:07,020
we're looking at press a button and get

415
00:19:14,660 --> 00:19:12,360
a total elemental analysis good yes

416
00:19:19,580 --> 00:19:14,670
amazing machine mm-hmm the inorganic

417
00:19:22,910 --> 00:19:19,590
stuff comes up as well as I say iron so

418
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:22,920
any inorganic material silicon obviously

419
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:24,810
but when we do it on the biological

420
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:28,290
particles we only get carbon oxygen and

421
00:19:32,510 --> 00:19:30,690
a small amount of nitrogen now that

422
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:32,520
tells us these are organic

423
00:19:39,610 --> 00:19:38,610
they are biological entities hydrogen as

424
00:19:42,050 --> 00:19:39,620
well right

425
00:19:44,090 --> 00:19:42,060
yeah but the Machine won't detect IG ah

426
00:19:45,710 --> 00:19:44,100
okay I'm cop surgeon and a little bit of

427
00:19:50,390 --> 00:19:45,720
nitrogen okay it's not very good at

428
00:19:51,620 --> 00:19:50,400
detecting nitrogen over so we we know

429
00:19:55,670 --> 00:19:51,630
they're organic we know they're not

430
00:19:57,980 --> 00:19:55,680
inorganic now we also know they've got

431
00:20:00,740 --> 00:19:57,990
what we call bilateral symmetry that's

432
00:20:02,510 --> 00:20:00,750
very important in biology you and I and

433
00:20:05,570 --> 00:20:02,520
all organisms if you put a line through

434
00:20:07,070 --> 00:20:05,580
the middle of us we have the symmetry

435
00:20:09,799 --> 00:20:07,080
and either side of us right

436
00:20:13,159 --> 00:20:09,809
all being well of course so you got two

437
00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:13,169
arms two etc and these are bilateral

438
00:20:17,299 --> 00:20:14,970
symmetry so if you put a line down the

439
00:20:18,740 --> 00:20:17,309
middle of them you get equal on either

440
00:20:20,750 --> 00:20:18,750
side now that's very important because

441
00:20:23,149 --> 00:20:20,760
if this were organic fluff

442
00:20:27,970 --> 00:20:23,159
I don't know from your bellybutton or

443
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:27,980
somewhere then it would be kind of

444
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:30,210
varied it would not show bilateral

445
00:20:35,769 --> 00:20:32,490
symmetry so this is why we know they're

446
00:20:40,159 --> 00:20:35,779
organisms and not just bits of fluff I

447
00:20:43,299 --> 00:20:40,169
was amazed by a picture that I saw it

448
00:20:48,580 --> 00:20:43,309
may have been on your website of

449
00:20:51,830 --> 00:20:48,590
titanium vanadium sphere Lucy and mucoid

450
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:51,840
material and I said this is right out of

451
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:53,850
a science fiction Wow

452
00:21:00,110 --> 00:20:56,010
this was amazing I mean you can imagine

453
00:21:02,299 --> 00:21:00,120
how amazed I was when I saw this when

454
00:21:04,370 --> 00:21:02,309
the e-tax came up on that it was as you

455
00:21:08,779 --> 00:21:04,380
say titanium mainly and a little bit of

456
00:21:10,340 --> 00:21:08,789
vanadium but when we zoomed in closer by

457
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:10,350
the way the students are Chris rose and

458
00:21:14,149 --> 00:21:12,570
Alex Baker I must mention their names

459
00:21:18,529 --> 00:21:14,159
because they do a lot of the very

460
00:21:21,409 --> 00:21:18,539
important experimental work and when we

461
00:21:24,950 --> 00:21:21,419
zoomed in we saw organic material on the

462
00:21:27,500 --> 00:21:24,960
outside a bit like a kind of a woolly

463
00:21:29,629 --> 00:21:27,510
jumper as it were and that was exciting

464
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:29,639
but for some reason and I don't know why

465
00:21:34,970 --> 00:21:33,090
I just said to the students is there any

466
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:34,980
chance you can move the ball the sphere

467
00:21:40,220 --> 00:21:37,440
across and we'll see what's behind it

468
00:21:43,549 --> 00:21:40,230
I had no real understanding of why I

469
00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:43,559
said that but I just said it now these

470
00:21:47,509 --> 00:21:45,570
people work in an engineering department

471
00:21:49,460 --> 00:21:47,519
and their microscopes are far better

472
00:21:53,090 --> 00:21:49,470
than the ones we normally use in in

473
00:21:55,730 --> 00:21:53,100
biology they're incredibly sensitive etc

474
00:21:58,850 --> 00:21:55,740
and they have an amazing and amazing

475
00:21:59,870 --> 00:21:58,860
machine and this basically is a microbe

476
00:22:03,769 --> 00:21:59,880
manipulator

477
00:22:07,070 --> 00:22:03,779
it's extremely thin much thinner than a

478
00:22:10,310 --> 00:22:07,080
human hair and using this they could

479
00:22:14,419 --> 00:22:10,320
just move the ball across well when they

480
00:22:18,620 --> 00:22:14,429
move the ball across who's kind of guns

481
00:22:20,549 --> 00:22:18,630
came out of the ball to the side and we

482
00:22:24,169 --> 00:22:20,559
edex that is carbon so

483
00:22:26,759 --> 00:22:24,179
what we've got is a titanium bowl with

484
00:22:30,539 --> 00:22:26,769
biology inside it and biology on the

485
00:22:32,820 --> 00:22:30,549
outside of it and obviously this is not

486
00:22:37,460 --> 00:22:32,830
heard of on earth it's just completely

487
00:22:40,830 --> 00:22:37,470
unknown you know sounds like an egg well

488
00:22:42,570 --> 00:22:40,840
one of the things I did say and I had to

489
00:22:44,759 --> 00:22:42,580
say this for the sake of completeness I

490
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:44,769
don't necessarily believe it but you

491
00:22:47,730 --> 00:22:46,330
know there's a theory of directed

492
00:22:51,139 --> 00:22:47,740
panspermia you must have heard about

493
00:22:54,749 --> 00:22:51,149
this yes this was the idea that aliens

494
00:22:56,909 --> 00:22:54,759
basically seed the cosmos with life and

495
00:23:00,029 --> 00:22:56,919
if this were the case this would make a

496
00:23:01,769 --> 00:23:00,039
perfect vehicle for sending life because

497
00:23:05,549 --> 00:23:01,779
it's got a titanium sphere which in

498
00:23:08,519 --> 00:23:05,559
connective of course very durable and

499
00:23:10,950 --> 00:23:08,529
let's go do it now I don't particularly

500
00:23:13,409 --> 00:23:10,960
kind of push this theory because one of

501
00:23:15,769 --> 00:23:13,419
the problems is apart from this if it

502
00:23:18,239 --> 00:23:15,779
were spent sent by an alien civilization

503
00:23:20,639 --> 00:23:18,249
you'd have to find the spaceship to find

504
00:23:22,139 --> 00:23:20,649
out you know how it was sent and most

505
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:22,149
scientists would kind of laugh at this

506
00:23:27,149 --> 00:23:25,210
idea were it not for the facts that the

507
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:27,159
main proponent of it was Francis Crick

508
00:23:32,249 --> 00:23:30,610
how do netplay yes so Francis came up

509
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:32,259
with this idea wrote a book about it a

510
00:23:35,970 --> 00:23:34,570
few papers and people took him seriously

511
00:23:37,859 --> 00:23:35,980
now if I'd have come up with the idea

512
00:23:40,049 --> 00:23:37,869
they'd still be laughing of course but

513
00:23:42,659 --> 00:23:40,059
when you win a Nobel Prize people tend

514
00:23:44,460 --> 00:23:42,669
to open to other source okay a little

515
00:23:46,379 --> 00:23:44,470
more attention I guess but let me ask

516
00:23:48,299 --> 00:23:46,389
you something now I don't know

517
00:23:49,710 --> 00:23:48,309
everything and you probably know more

518
00:23:53,220 --> 00:23:49,720
than me but you don't know everything

519
00:23:58,289 --> 00:23:53,230
either but in your in your experience

520
00:24:01,379 --> 00:23:58,299
how how would a titanium vanadium sphere

521
00:24:03,389 --> 00:24:01,389
form in nature on the other hand well

522
00:24:05,759 --> 00:24:03,399
for example they do have that on earth

523
00:24:10,850 --> 00:24:05,769
though foraminifera are one celled

524
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:10,860
organisms in the ocean yeah well is that

525
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:13,570
maybe the titanium spheres exist

526
00:24:17,850 --> 00:24:16,570
naturally anyway and these organisms are

527
00:24:21,029 --> 00:24:17,860
acting like a hermit crab

528
00:24:22,980 --> 00:24:21,039
yeah so the shell is natural or it

529
00:24:24,749 --> 00:24:22,990
occurs wherever it occurs and the

530
00:24:27,659 --> 00:24:24,759
organisms just get in there and use it

531
00:24:28,950 --> 00:24:27,669
as their home because it's difficult to

532
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:28,960
imagine well of course you don't know

533
00:24:32,460 --> 00:24:30,610
what you're talking about in terms of

534
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:32,470
organisms but it's difficult to imagine

535
00:24:36,570 --> 00:24:34,090
them laying down a titanium

536
00:24:41,130 --> 00:24:36,580
fear like this although nothing's

537
00:24:43,620 --> 00:24:41,140
impossible so I suspect maybe they maybe

538
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:43,630
they're just using it as a passenger or

539
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:46,450
a vehicle to to move around I don't know

540
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:49,330
these are the speculations yes but then

541
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:51,490
you'd have to speculate where titanium

542
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:54,730
spheres exist you know and if there was

543
00:25:01,529 --> 00:24:57,610
some you know some location in space

544
00:25:03,299 --> 00:25:01,539
where it was common yep tracer we

545
00:25:05,460 --> 00:25:03,309
obviously don't know a great deal about

546
00:25:06,870 --> 00:25:05,470
these because we we're at the beginning

547
00:25:08,970 --> 00:25:06,880
of our studies and no one else is

548
00:25:10,649 --> 00:25:08,980
joining in at the moment that we're very

549
00:25:15,060 --> 00:25:10,659
much limited to what we can do ourselves

550
00:25:16,350 --> 00:25:15,070
and you know you can speculate till

551
00:25:17,850 --> 00:25:16,360
you're blue in the face of course but

552
00:25:20,370 --> 00:25:17,860
until we get more and more information

553
00:25:23,130 --> 00:25:20,380
we know we're where they're coming from

554
00:25:24,990 --> 00:25:23,140
or what they are it's really distressing

555
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:25,000
because really a long time ago I was

556
00:25:29,639 --> 00:25:27,130
interested in exobiology and everyone

557
00:25:31,740 --> 00:25:29,649
treated as if it were UFOs and then NASA

558
00:25:33,570 --> 00:25:31,750
started to call it astrobiology and

559
00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:33,580
suddenly yeah it's a wonder I feel

560
00:25:36,930 --> 00:25:35,710
didn't well you know it's a problem with

561
00:25:38,549 --> 00:25:36,940
us job well as you know around the world

562
00:25:40,980 --> 00:25:38,559
is a lot of people are jumping on the

563
00:25:42,990 --> 00:25:40,990
bandwagon most of it is not devoted to

564
00:25:44,399 --> 00:25:43,000
looking for life in space it's looking

565
00:25:44,610 --> 00:25:44,409
for life in extreme environments on

566
00:25:47,220 --> 00:25:44,620
earth

567
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:47,230
great so people go to the Antarctic if

568
00:25:51,539 --> 00:25:49,090
they get money to do this well it's not

569
00:25:53,130 --> 00:25:51,549
really related to space because space is

570
00:25:55,110 --> 00:25:53,140
gonna be far more extreme than the

571
00:25:57,750 --> 00:25:55,120
Antarctic or whatever so it's a good

572
00:25:59,250 --> 00:25:57,760
little bandwagon you can jump on but the

573
00:26:01,830 --> 00:25:59,260
great thing about this is we're actually

574
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:01,840
doing something at least away from the

575
00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:03,730
earth in the stratosphere so you

576
00:26:07,260 --> 00:26:05,770
basically go ahead basically what we're

577
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:07,270
doing is we're hoping to catch things

578
00:26:13,639 --> 00:26:09,450
that are coming in right mm-hmm

579
00:26:16,350 --> 00:26:13,649
so what you need is some really great

580
00:26:18,570 --> 00:26:16,360
scientists in other places to replicate

581
00:26:20,220 --> 00:26:18,580
your studies is that the case that's

582
00:26:23,460 --> 00:26:20,230
exactly what we need we need people to

583
00:26:25,919 --> 00:26:23,470
be open-minded as I said you intimated

584
00:26:28,049 --> 00:26:25,929
earlier on this approach costs

585
00:26:30,389 --> 00:26:28,059
relatively nothing it's a few thousand

586
00:26:32,730 --> 00:26:30,399
dollars a few thousand pounds now you

587
00:26:35,010 --> 00:26:32,740
know NASA sent sixty spent sixty billion

588
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:35,020
dollars I don't know sending a lander to

589
00:26:37,769 --> 00:26:36,490
mark they could do this tomorrow they

590
00:26:40,110 --> 00:26:37,779
have the technology there's nothing

591
00:26:42,270 --> 00:26:40,120
complicated about it they obviously have

592
00:26:43,740 --> 00:26:42,280
the money to do it most universities

593
00:26:45,360 --> 00:26:43,750
with an electron microscope and a

594
00:26:47,890 --> 00:26:45,370
balloon we're talking about a cheap

595
00:26:50,950 --> 00:26:47,900
weather below nothing expensive

596
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:50,960
but every scientist in the world nearly

597
00:26:55,930 --> 00:26:52,850
everyone it could be having a go at this

598
00:26:59,140 --> 00:26:55,940
but we've heard rumors of Japanese

599
00:27:00,940 --> 00:26:59,150
workers and but as yet no one is

600
00:27:02,980 --> 00:27:00,950
repeating it which is quite amazing I

601
00:27:04,990 --> 00:27:02,990
mean what the hell are they doing you

602
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:05,000
know well why don't you give your

603
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:08,090
website oh good I mean right now so that

604
00:27:14,500 --> 00:27:10,730
anybody who listens to this and has an

605
00:27:16,810 --> 00:27:14,510
interest they may want to do it we're

606
00:27:21,970 --> 00:27:16,820
talk to someone they know who can do it

607
00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:21,980
yeah well it's my right okay can't

608
00:27:25,510 --> 00:27:23,570
remember actually you've caught me a but

609
00:27:26,980 --> 00:27:25,520
the actual website address but if you go

610
00:27:28,300 --> 00:27:26,990
onto Google and just put Milton

611
00:27:31,570 --> 00:27:28,310
Wainwright you'll get a lot of the news

612
00:27:33,250 --> 00:27:31,580
and the the the input that and I think

613
00:27:36,010 --> 00:27:33,260
that will direct you to my website I

614
00:27:38,890 --> 00:27:36,020
said it'd be a perfect PhD thesis may be

615
00:27:41,110 --> 00:27:38,900
excellent yeah really would be very good

616
00:27:44,470 --> 00:27:41,120
yeah yeah I mean you know it would

617
00:27:46,210 --> 00:27:44,480
fantastic for pH DS or cyan't even if

618
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:46,220
you have access to the microscope that

619
00:27:49,300 --> 00:27:48,170
the big requirement I mean you can

620
00:27:50,710 --> 00:27:49,310
collect the samples but the big

621
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:50,720
requirement is the electron microscope

622
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:53,690
of course so theoretically colleges

623
00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:55,490
could do it if they had a microscope and

624
00:28:00,250 --> 00:27:58,250
so on now one important point I need to

625
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:00,260
emphasize it when we first published

626
00:28:06,940 --> 00:28:04,730
this now two points in fact we tried the

627
00:28:09,250 --> 00:28:06,950
top journals and they wouldn't even open

628
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:09,260
the envelope as it works so we have to

629
00:28:14,110 --> 00:28:11,330
use journals which are regarded not as

630
00:28:16,360 --> 00:28:14,120
kind of like nature etc now this is one

631
00:28:19,750 --> 00:28:16,370
of the problems with doing exciting new

632
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:19,760
work it's often the case that the top

633
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:21,290
journals weren't entertaining now this

634
00:28:26,170 --> 00:28:23,690
is not special pleading this is the way

635
00:28:28,150 --> 00:28:26,180
of the world right now the other thing

636
00:28:30,460 --> 00:28:28,160
is that a lot of people said these

637
00:28:32,890 --> 00:28:30,470
organisms are coming from Earth it was a

638
00:28:35,590 --> 00:28:32,900
total major reaction because in our

639
00:28:37,930 --> 00:28:35,600
papers we explain why they're not coming

640
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:37,940
from Earth now the two reasons why that

641
00:28:42,220 --> 00:28:39,730
what main two reasons are first of all

642
00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:42,230
we can do and other people have done

643
00:28:47,710 --> 00:28:45,110
this we can do calculations we can do

644
00:28:50,290 --> 00:28:47,720
modelling that says that particles

645
00:28:53,410 --> 00:28:50,300
bigger than 6 microns so just keep in

646
00:28:56,350 --> 00:28:53,420
mind the number 6 anything bigger than 6

647
00:29:00,220 --> 00:28:56,360
can't escape into the stratosphere at

648
00:29:01,980 --> 00:29:00,230
the heights we sample from we're looking

649
00:29:05,789 --> 00:29:01,990
at organisms which are in

650
00:29:08,370 --> 00:29:05,799
10 to 40 microns so six four so

651
00:29:11,190 --> 00:29:08,380
theoretically they can't escape into the

652
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:11,200
stratosphere now you might say okay well

653
00:29:15,539 --> 00:29:13,570
that your thickness your theories are

654
00:29:19,860 --> 00:29:15,549
wrong your numbers are wrong and etc etc

655
00:29:22,830 --> 00:29:19,870
the clincher is this we've done about

656
00:29:26,940 --> 00:29:22,840
ten flights now and on no occasion do we

657
00:29:30,990 --> 00:29:26,950
find any grass pollen or anything other

658
00:29:32,580 --> 00:29:31,000
than these microbes on the stubs now if

659
00:29:34,260 --> 00:29:32,590
they were coming from Earth you would

660
00:29:36,090 --> 00:29:34,270
expect them to be covered in all this

661
00:29:37,860 --> 00:29:36,100
material sure right mm-hmm

662
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:37,870
you'll expect the organisms will look

663
00:29:42,060 --> 00:29:40,090
you know to be in the middle of a mass

664
00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:42,070
of this stuff because obviously there's

665
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:44,110
so much I don't know this in fact we

666
00:29:47,789 --> 00:29:45,370
might never see what we're looking at

667
00:29:50,399 --> 00:29:47,799
but these organisms are occurring in

668
00:29:52,919 --> 00:29:50,409
pristine condition they're on the stubs

669
00:29:53,490 --> 00:29:52,929
alone or in pairs there's nothing around

670
00:29:57,419 --> 00:29:53,500
them

671
00:30:00,180 --> 00:29:57,429
now unless there's a sieve which is

672
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:00,190
impossible which takes out all the grass

673
00:30:06,930 --> 00:30:04,090
from Earth in the stratosphere and only

674
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:06,940
lets our organisms through they must be

675
00:30:13,019 --> 00:30:10,710
coming from space or from outside earth

676
00:30:15,060 --> 00:30:13,029
the other point is that there's the

677
00:30:18,060 --> 00:30:15,070
sphere you are talking about made an

678
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:18,070
impact event on the sampler you made a

679
00:30:23,940 --> 00:30:21,010
little crater mm-hmm now you can't get a

680
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:23,950
crater if you're being wafted up from

681
00:30:31,019 --> 00:30:27,490
Earth the velocity is too low it must be

682
00:30:33,450 --> 00:30:31,029
coming at speed from outside so for

683
00:30:35,940 --> 00:30:33,460
these reasons we're confident and

684
00:30:38,460 --> 00:30:35,950
nobody's kind of arguing against our

685
00:30:40,590 --> 00:30:38,470
theories I mean I give these talks all

686
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:40,600
over the world and I get the usual

687
00:30:45,090 --> 00:30:42,370
questions and everybody says oh it's

688
00:30:47,940 --> 00:30:45,100
contamination mm-hmm but at the end of

689
00:30:49,769 --> 00:30:47,950
the talk no one can say well you know I

690
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:49,779
can shoot you down in flames this is

691
00:30:53,340 --> 00:30:51,730
nonsense

692
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:53,350
I'd love it if somebody could tell us

693
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:54,850
well we're going wrong because I don't I

694
00:30:59,070 --> 00:30:57,490
don't believe we are but no one can

695
00:31:01,830 --> 00:30:59,080
shoot us down in flames so I've said

696
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:01,840
I'll well I actually I've I've run out

697
00:31:06,060 --> 00:31:03,970
of money now but I did say earlier on

698
00:31:08,820 --> 00:31:06,070
when I had some finance that I would go

699
00:31:12,389 --> 00:31:08,830
anywhere in the world to any meeting of

700
00:31:14,039 --> 00:31:12,399
scientists of whatever and they could

701
00:31:15,110 --> 00:31:14,049
shoot me down in flame reduce me to

702
00:31:19,549 --> 00:31:15,120
tears

703
00:31:23,330 --> 00:31:19,559
they could by explaining to us why we're

704
00:31:26,299 --> 00:31:23,340
going wrong and we've done that we've

705
00:31:30,410 --> 00:31:26,309
been to Sri Lanka I've been to various

706
00:31:31,100 --> 00:31:30,420
other countries in the UK a lot and no

707
00:31:33,860 --> 00:31:31,110
one yet

708
00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:33,870
shut us down in flames two two things

709
00:31:37,820 --> 00:31:36,000
here that come to my mind and one thing

710
00:31:40,820 --> 00:31:37,830
is something that we started out with

711
00:31:43,250 --> 00:31:40,830
today in our introduction with you in

712
00:31:46,460 --> 00:31:43,260
your background the other big thing is

713
00:31:50,030 --> 00:31:46,470
that these microorganisms that you are

714
00:31:52,940 --> 00:31:50,040
seeing most of them don't occur on earth

715
00:31:55,790 --> 00:31:52,950
correct now the answer to that of course

716
00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:55,800
is well we've just not seen them so you

717
00:31:59,840 --> 00:31:57,450
know I mean the criticism would be quite

718
00:32:01,700 --> 00:31:59,850
you know quite obvious well you say

719
00:32:04,490 --> 00:32:01,710
you've never seen them but maybe they

720
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:04,500
come from a deep-sea vent you know off

721
00:32:09,740 --> 00:32:06,510
on jurors which nobody's nobody's family

722
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:09,750
so it but that's a good comment but it

723
00:32:14,090 --> 00:32:12,000
could always be circumvented by a critic

724
00:32:17,210 --> 00:32:14,100
saying well we're just not seeing them

725
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:17,220
yet and you just happen well the other

726
00:32:22,270 --> 00:32:19,770
comment that I was going to say is that

727
00:32:25,580 --> 00:32:22,280
maybe your critics are victims of

728
00:32:27,950 --> 00:32:25,590
scientism and and they just say well it

729
00:32:31,910 --> 00:32:27,960
can't be so that's why it's not true

730
00:32:33,290 --> 00:32:31,920
because sir it can't I don't I don't

731
00:32:35,450 --> 00:32:33,300
really want to go into this but we've

732
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:35,460
had tremendous about a negative not

733
00:32:41,750 --> 00:32:37,530
scientific negative criticism but a lot

734
00:32:44,169 --> 00:32:41,760
of attacks on us charleen etc and also

735
00:32:48,260 --> 00:32:44,179
from the scientific community in general

736
00:32:49,370 --> 00:32:48,270
so you know I don't I I wanted people to

737
00:32:51,620 --> 00:32:49,380
attack us I want them to do

738
00:32:53,810 --> 00:32:51,630
scientifically I want us you know I am

739
00:32:55,310 --> 00:32:53,820
about to retire although I continue

740
00:32:56,570 --> 00:32:55,320
doing this work but I'm retiring from

741
00:32:59,870 --> 00:32:56,580
lecturing and so on

742
00:33:01,880 --> 00:32:59,880
I'm 67 now I'm getting a bit tired but I

743
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:01,890
will continue with this this kind of

744
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:06,210
work obviously but you know I I don't

745
00:33:11,299 --> 00:33:09,450
want to die thinking well you know say

746
00:33:13,610 --> 00:33:11,309
about 20 years left I'd like somebody to

747
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:13,620
tell me exactly where we're going wrong

748
00:33:21,890 --> 00:33:17,730
or tell me we're right obviously now I

749
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:21,900
kind of fantasize that maybe let's say I

750
00:33:27,500 --> 00:33:24,570
live until I'm 80 of 20 years lens or

751
00:33:29,659 --> 00:33:27,510
whatever there may be a compendium you

752
00:33:31,940 --> 00:33:29,669
know we've found like 10 or

753
00:33:34,340 --> 00:33:31,950
there may be this amazing compendium

754
00:33:36,260 --> 00:33:34,350
that they give to me showing thousands

755
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:36,270
of these organisms coming in you know

756
00:33:39,770 --> 00:33:37,890
they're being collected over the next

757
00:33:42,020 --> 00:33:39,780
10-15 years or so

758
00:33:43,970 --> 00:33:42,030
well that would be tremendous yeah that

759
00:33:46,250 --> 00:33:43,980
would be wonderful excitement wouldn't

760
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:46,260
it in fact it's very excited to come

761
00:33:50,900 --> 00:33:47,850
towards the end of my career and to get

762
00:33:52,250 --> 00:33:50,910
this you know as a scientist there's

763
00:33:54,789 --> 00:33:52,260
nothing more exciting than something

764
00:33:57,350 --> 00:33:54,799
finding something new

765
00:33:58,850 --> 00:33:57,360
absolutely and I'm hoping though

766
00:34:01,039 --> 00:33:58,860
although you pay although you pay for

767
00:34:03,500 --> 00:34:01,049
novelty by being attacked you know

768
00:34:04,490 --> 00:34:03,510
scientists we get this impression of

769
00:34:05,930 --> 00:34:04,500
science where we're given this

770
00:34:08,659 --> 00:34:05,940
impression of scientists being open

771
00:34:12,379 --> 00:34:08,669
minded etc etc but in fact there's a lot

772
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:12,389
of antagonism to new ideas as you know

773
00:34:18,710 --> 00:34:13,970
mm-hm

774
00:34:20,470 --> 00:34:18,720
yes well I'm hoping that this podcast

775
00:34:24,940 --> 00:34:20,480
and other lectures that you've given

776
00:34:27,619 --> 00:34:24,950
inspire some person to replicate your

777
00:34:29,300 --> 00:34:27,629
you're finding somewhere around the

778
00:34:31,550 --> 00:34:29,310
world and I I can't see why they

779
00:34:33,500 --> 00:34:31,560
wouldn't do it well this is a very

780
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:33,510
interesting could I just mention other

781
00:34:37,879 --> 00:34:36,090
thing of course people say well why is

782
00:34:39,830 --> 00:34:37,889
it important that these organisms are

783
00:34:41,780 --> 00:34:39,840
coming in and wells to things that

784
00:34:43,940 --> 00:34:41,790
people always say first of all why it's

785
00:34:45,740 --> 00:34:43,950
important well one of the things it may

786
00:34:47,990 --> 00:34:45,750
be bringing in is new information you

787
00:34:49,340 --> 00:34:48,000
know evolution we always think of and

788
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:49,350
this is why the Darwinists don't like

789
00:34:54,109 --> 00:34:51,690
this idea they're so kind of stuck on

790
00:34:56,659 --> 00:34:54,119
the idea that information has come from

791
00:34:59,060 --> 00:34:56,669
within the biological community over

792
00:35:01,400 --> 00:34:59,070
millions of years what if information is

793
00:35:04,430 --> 00:35:01,410
coming out from out us out of space what

794
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:04,440
is DNA and organisms coming in it will

795
00:35:09,950 --> 00:35:07,770
add new information to evolution now so

796
00:35:12,830 --> 00:35:09,960
it opens up a completely new idea of

797
00:35:15,109 --> 00:35:12,840
biology it's kind of exobiology it opens

798
00:35:16,820 --> 00:35:15,119
up our view of life in the cosmos

799
00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:16,830
yeah they don't just on this little

800
00:35:21,980 --> 00:35:20,730
rocky island a rocky planet rather now

801
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:21,990
the other thing is people always said to

802
00:35:25,870 --> 00:35:24,450
me are they going to kill us is this the

803
00:35:29,210 --> 00:35:25,880
end of the world you know some kind of

804
00:35:31,609 --> 00:35:29,220
b-movie and my simple answer to that is

805
00:35:33,140 --> 00:35:31,619
well they've been coming in longer than

806
00:35:35,330 --> 00:35:33,150
they've been around longer than we have

807
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:35,340
and they haven't destroyed as yet there

808
00:35:41,420 --> 00:35:37,650
is much of their much part of biology as

809
00:35:42,830 --> 00:35:41,430
we are so that I lost them Chandra and

810
00:35:44,660 --> 00:35:42,840
Fred Hoyle

811
00:35:46,730 --> 00:35:44,670
yesterday diseases might come from space

812
00:35:50,690 --> 00:35:46,740
so there's a there's a possibility of

813
00:35:54,950 --> 00:35:50,700
that but wasn't there a study awhile

814
00:35:59,000 --> 00:35:54,960
back up like it before the 20th century

815
00:36:02,180 --> 00:35:59,010
where somebody equated the passage of

816
00:36:06,410 --> 00:36:02,190
large comets through the center of the

817
00:36:08,780 --> 00:36:06,420
solar system with like flus that came

818
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:08,790
about a few months later up to a year

819
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:11,850
later but well from the Year dot people

820
00:36:18,740 --> 00:36:13,890
have associated comments with tragedies

821
00:36:20,720 --> 00:36:18,750
with natural disasters Halley's comet

822
00:36:22,430 --> 00:36:20,730
Halley's Comet if you will was

823
00:36:25,460 --> 00:36:22,440
associated with plagues and famines

824
00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:25,470
Celeste and Fred Hoyle and Chandra came

825
00:36:30,830 --> 00:36:28,050
up with this idea that diseases modern

826
00:36:35,500 --> 00:36:30,840
diseases like SARS and even possibly

827
00:36:38,570 --> 00:36:35,510
AIDS come from space and mutate here and

828
00:36:41,690 --> 00:36:38,580
they had new diseases now that really is

829
00:36:44,330 --> 00:36:41,700
kind of an extreme possibility problem

830
00:36:46,940 --> 00:36:44,340
with I mean if people don't believe in

831
00:36:50,150 --> 00:36:46,950
panspermia the idea of viruses from

832
00:36:52,550 --> 00:36:50,160
space is gonna be even more unbelievable

833
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:52,560
but it's an interesting possibility yes

834
00:36:58,190 --> 00:36:55,490
okay well there's one other thing that

835
00:37:00,590 --> 00:36:58,200
ties into that and I'm trying to think

836
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:00,600
of the gentleman's name he's recently

837
00:37:07,900 --> 00:37:04,130
deceased prematurely deceased but he

838
00:37:10,610 --> 00:37:07,910
talked about spores from mushrooms

839
00:37:13,940 --> 00:37:10,620
possibly coming in this very same way

840
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:13,950
from space and that the spores from the

841
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:16,250
mushrooms that crea they created

842
00:37:24,940 --> 00:37:19,410
mushrooms that were mind-expanding on

843
00:37:27,530 --> 00:37:24,950
earth and thereby a widened our oh

844
00:37:29,630 --> 00:37:27,540
that's interesting because I just looked

845
00:37:31,550 --> 00:37:29,640
at the internet before you before you

846
00:37:34,220 --> 00:37:31,560
contacted me and there's some work

847
00:37:37,940 --> 00:37:34,230
saying that Morning Glory seeds can

848
00:37:40,250 --> 00:37:37,950
survive in space Wow high levels of UV

849
00:37:41,900 --> 00:37:40,260
now Morning Glory of course as you

850
00:37:45,140 --> 00:37:41,910
possibly know he's an elusive Jen yes

851
00:37:49,070 --> 00:37:45,150
indeed some people take it like LSD

852
00:37:51,940 --> 00:37:49,080
it could be careful my dad take an awful

853
00:37:55,820 --> 00:37:51,950
lot of it though LSD cat you've tried

854
00:37:56,630 --> 00:37:55,830
obviously tried a few pounds yes I tried

855
00:37:58,789 --> 00:37:56,640
two or three

856
00:38:02,269 --> 00:37:58,799
and absolutely nothing happened I'm not

857
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:02,279
ashamed to say yeah well so they're

858
00:38:07,339 --> 00:38:04,170
saying that maybe Morning Glory seeds

859
00:38:09,380 --> 00:38:07,349
came from soup and spare me I don't know

860
00:38:11,150 --> 00:38:09,390
about this I mean we concentrate on on

861
00:38:12,980 --> 00:38:11,160
microbes see the great thing about

862
00:38:15,710 --> 00:38:12,990
microbes is they're small and they can

863
00:38:18,019 --> 00:38:15,720
be protected from if they're covered in

864
00:38:19,549 --> 00:38:18,029
in cosmic dust or they're covered in if

865
00:38:22,190 --> 00:38:19,559
they're in a meteorite they can be

866
00:38:24,259 --> 00:38:22,200
protected from UV and radiation and the

867
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:24,269
other thing is microbes of an extremely

868
00:38:29,539 --> 00:38:27,690
rapid reproduction rate so you can

869
00:38:31,730 --> 00:38:29,549
imagine let's just have a scenario where

870
00:38:35,150 --> 00:38:31,740
the earth is just cooling to the point

871
00:38:38,029 --> 00:38:35,160
where life is possible can exist on the

872
00:38:41,059 --> 00:38:38,039
on the planet the new planet one single

873
00:38:42,980 --> 00:38:41,069
proto life-form or a single bacterium or

874
00:38:46,910 --> 00:38:42,990
a single one of these entities if it

875
00:38:48,980 --> 00:38:46,920
lands it reproduces every 20 minutes now

876
00:38:52,130 --> 00:38:48,990
by the law of doubling which you know

877
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:52,140
about I guess within a month or six

878
00:38:56,089 --> 00:38:53,970
months the whole of the surface of the

879
00:38:58,849 --> 00:38:56,099
earth would be covered in these life

880
00:39:00,890 --> 00:38:58,859
forms imagine that wouldn't take long

881
00:39:02,809 --> 00:39:00,900
because there's no competition there's

882
00:39:04,970 --> 00:39:02,819
nothing to eat them they've got plenty

883
00:39:07,130 --> 00:39:04,980
of nutrients they just double they

884
00:39:09,259 --> 00:39:07,140
double they double they double and so on

885
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:09,269
and by that by six months the whole of

886
00:39:13,460 --> 00:39:10,890
the surface a if they were green for

887
00:39:16,819 --> 00:39:13,470
example will be coated in green life and

888
00:39:18,799 --> 00:39:16,829
that could then evolve it could perhaps

889
00:39:20,420 --> 00:39:18,809
interact with life that form I mean the

890
00:39:22,370 --> 00:39:20,430
possibilities that two things happened

891
00:39:24,740 --> 00:39:22,380
you should never be mutually exclusive

892
00:39:26,509 --> 00:39:24,750
maybe life did form on the earth and

893
00:39:29,630 --> 00:39:26,519
maybe a life supplement was supplemented

894
00:39:32,390 --> 00:39:29,640
from life coming in you know the two are

895
00:39:34,069 --> 00:39:32,400
not mutually exclusive but you can

896
00:39:38,450 --> 00:39:34,079
imagine how quickly they would develop

897
00:39:42,220 --> 00:39:38,460
if they this happened have you tried to

898
00:39:47,029 --> 00:39:42,230
grow like colonies of these on peat and

899
00:39:50,240 --> 00:39:47,039
well one of the problems we have we're

900
00:39:52,370 --> 00:39:50,250
limited by techniques with our

901
00:39:55,009 --> 00:39:52,380
microscope we have to cover the surface

902
00:39:56,960 --> 00:39:55,019
with gold so that we can image the

903
00:39:59,359 --> 00:39:56,970
images now once they're covered in gold

904
00:40:03,289 --> 00:39:59,369
of course we can't grow them so if we

905
00:40:05,599 --> 00:40:03,299
want to see them we can't grow them and

906
00:40:07,759 --> 00:40:05,609
if we grow them we can't see them so

907
00:40:09,529 --> 00:40:07,769
there's a problem here but there are

908
00:40:10,969 --> 00:40:09,539
other microscopes around the world which

909
00:40:12,169 --> 00:40:10,979
could do this

910
00:40:14,329 --> 00:40:12,179
now I'll tell you a very interesting

911
00:40:16,029 --> 00:40:14,339
story one of the things we want to do is

912
00:40:18,199 --> 00:40:16,039
what's called an isotope fractionation

913
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:18,209
now an isotope fractionation is

914
00:40:24,799 --> 00:40:20,729
basically saying that say carbon has a

915
00:40:26,659 --> 00:40:24,809
different isotope ratio on earth from

916
00:40:29,449 --> 00:40:26,669
microbes in space this is what we

917
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:29,459
theorized so if you could do a carbon or

918
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:31,650
another element isotope fractionation on

919
00:40:36,739 --> 00:40:34,410
the on the organisms we finding and you

920
00:40:39,409 --> 00:40:36,749
may find a different ratio so they this

921
00:40:42,589 --> 00:40:39,419
would demonstrate excuse me

922
00:40:44,689 --> 00:40:42,599
hello they're coming from space now we

923
00:40:47,089 --> 00:40:44,699
don't have this machinery very expensive

924
00:40:49,459 --> 00:40:47,099
and complicated and on two or three

925
00:40:51,469 --> 00:40:49,469
occasions I've contacted laboratories

926
00:40:53,089 --> 00:40:51,479
and friends of mine have contacted

927
00:40:57,380 --> 00:40:53,099
laboratories around the world Cambridge

928
00:40:59,419 --> 00:40:57,390
for example and they've said ok we can

929
00:41:02,209 --> 00:40:59,429
do this we'll do it next month or so and

930
00:41:03,949 --> 00:41:02,219
in all cases just before they're

931
00:41:07,459 --> 00:41:03,959
supposed to do it I get an email saying

932
00:41:11,630 --> 00:41:07,469
sorry we can't do it and in all cases

933
00:41:13,370 --> 00:41:11,640
it's because generally the head of the

934
00:41:17,209 --> 00:41:13,380
Institute said we're not getting

935
00:41:19,099 --> 00:41:17,219
involved in this work because they they

936
00:41:21,739 --> 00:41:19,109
are worried it will attack their funding

937
00:41:23,839 --> 00:41:21,749
as you know science is all about funding

938
00:41:25,370 --> 00:41:23,849
now if you get associated with these

939
00:41:27,589 --> 00:41:25,380
cranks or saying light comes in from

940
00:41:30,079 --> 00:41:27,599
space mm-hmm it'll give the Institute a

941
00:41:33,469 --> 00:41:30,089
bad name so again this is not special

942
00:41:35,809 --> 00:41:33,479
pleading this is happening so it's quite

943
00:41:38,209 --> 00:41:35,819
amazing that you know this wonderful

944
00:41:41,899 --> 00:41:38,219
freedom that we expect from science it's

945
00:41:44,539 --> 00:41:41,909
not happening why I think it comes down

946
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:44,549
to money but what interests me most

947
00:41:49,939 --> 00:41:46,890
about these things that you have found

948
00:41:54,079 --> 00:41:49,949
most of them do have carbon and oxygen

949
00:41:55,939 --> 00:41:54,089
and nitrogen and have you looked were

950
00:41:58,789 --> 00:41:55,949
there other elements present or just

951
00:42:00,799 --> 00:41:58,799
those well I mean Never Say Never but if

952
00:42:03,709 --> 00:42:00,809
you look by ok and I give lectures on

953
00:42:05,659 --> 00:42:03,719
this to my students mm-hmm you would say

954
00:42:08,899 --> 00:42:05,669
that all life by definition is

955
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:08,909
carbon-based all right you cannot I mean

956
00:42:12,620 --> 00:42:11,130
you know unless there's some kind of

957
00:42:16,579 --> 00:42:12,630
weird chemistry that we don't know about

958
00:42:17,959 --> 00:42:16,589
and who knows life is based on carbon so

959
00:42:19,969 --> 00:42:17,969
we would expect life elsewhere in the

960
00:42:21,319 --> 00:42:19,979
cosmos to be carbon-based you know the

961
00:42:22,609 --> 00:42:21,329
science fiction writers talk about

962
00:42:24,049 --> 00:42:22,619
silicon-based life

963
00:42:25,939 --> 00:42:24,059
well silicon is that

964
00:42:28,189 --> 00:42:25,949
nonsense as far as we know I keep on

965
00:42:30,499 --> 00:42:28,199
kind of adding the caveat that as far as

966
00:42:32,410 --> 00:42:30,509
we know because as a heretic I don't

967
00:42:35,809 --> 00:42:32,420
want to suggest that everything to me

968
00:42:38,599 --> 00:42:35,819
these things are limited by my mind but

969
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:38,609
as far as we can tell silicon for

970
00:42:47,299 --> 00:42:44,729
example it is climate right no yeah it's

971
00:42:49,969 --> 00:42:47,309
determine the source of energies no but

972
00:42:53,059 --> 00:42:49,979
so silicones out of the picture

973
00:42:55,370 --> 00:42:53,069
yeah it is but what also you also hint

974
00:42:58,219 --> 00:42:55,380
that there's a hint of a DNA type

975
00:42:59,539 --> 00:42:58,229
structure well we find it we are finding

976
00:43:01,339 --> 00:42:59,549
DNA in the stratosphere

977
00:43:03,620 --> 00:43:01,349
oh well that's pretty that's pretty

978
00:43:05,660 --> 00:43:03,630
phenomenal yeah I mean again I would

979
00:43:08,749 --> 00:43:05,670
expect I mean there's got to be some

980
00:43:10,009 --> 00:43:08,759
information system and the you know if a

981
00:43:11,749 --> 00:43:10,019
number of people are saying well maybe

982
00:43:14,479 --> 00:43:11,759
on earth even there's a different type

983
00:43:15,709 --> 00:43:14,489
of information that's not DNA now I

984
00:43:17,059 --> 00:43:15,719
don't know how they're going to

985
00:43:18,140 --> 00:43:17,069
demonstrate this because if you don't

986
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:18,150
know what you're looking for how are you

987
00:43:22,189 --> 00:43:20,249
going to find it but some people are

988
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:22,199
making a lot of head will making a lot

989
00:43:26,870 --> 00:43:25,170
of noise about this idea but I am kind

990
00:43:29,089 --> 00:43:26,880
of conservative about this I think life

991
00:43:32,469 --> 00:43:29,099
forms around the cosmos would be based

992
00:43:35,509 --> 00:43:32,479
on carbon they would be based on DNA and

993
00:43:37,579 --> 00:43:35,519
they would essentially be what we what

994
00:43:39,739 --> 00:43:37,589
we expect to find me here but different

995
00:43:42,339 --> 00:43:39,749
obviously they'd be modified by their

996
00:43:45,939 --> 00:43:42,349
conditions in which they're living in

997
00:43:49,429 --> 00:43:45,949
now I want to just ask you about another

998
00:43:52,069 --> 00:43:49,439
scientists work that you may be familiar

999
00:43:54,169 --> 00:43:52,079
with and I'm not asking you to critique

1000
00:43:57,079 --> 00:43:54,179
it as a given a good or bad but just

1001
00:43:59,449 --> 00:43:57,089
kind of what do you think about what

1002
00:44:03,140 --> 00:43:59,459
he's done and I'm talking about doctor

1003
00:44:05,689 --> 00:44:03,150
Richard Hoover in the US and the the

1004
00:44:10,249 --> 00:44:05,699
crinoids fassl's he seems to think he

1005
00:44:12,049 --> 00:44:10,259
found on the moment I know Mars no rich

1006
00:44:14,539 --> 00:44:12,059
in a lot of his talks in the States

1007
00:44:17,900 --> 00:44:14,549
mainly and I will critique him his works

1008
00:44:19,429 --> 00:44:17,910
amazing okay this is the kind of work

1009
00:44:22,599 --> 00:44:19,439
that people should be taking seriously

1010
00:44:25,999 --> 00:44:22,609
and repeated as you know this man was

1011
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:26,009
kicked out where he was kind of he'd

1012
00:44:31,209 --> 00:44:28,130
retired he was working with NASA and

1013
00:44:34,489 --> 00:44:31,219
producing these amazing images of

1014
00:44:36,620 --> 00:44:34,499
fossilized not these are not living

1015
00:44:37,019 --> 00:44:36,630
organism these are fossilized organisms

1016
00:44:39,269 --> 00:44:37,029
they meet

1017
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:39,279
rights and to microbiologists these

1018
00:44:43,049 --> 00:44:41,650
images are amazing but the people again

1019
00:44:44,370 --> 00:44:43,059
pooh-poohed them I don't think they look

1020
00:44:46,649 --> 00:44:44,380
at the evidence I think it's a knee-jerk

1021
00:44:48,390 --> 00:44:46,659
reaction and they completely ignore it

1022
00:44:49,829 --> 00:44:48,400
now every time I go to one of these

1023
00:44:52,079 --> 00:44:49,839
lectures I'm just I just come out

1024
00:44:54,539 --> 00:44:52,089
gobsmacked I'm just amazed by what he

1025
00:44:58,729 --> 00:44:54,549
shows you and yet it doesn't register in

1026
00:45:01,219 --> 00:44:58,739
the norm you know I mean it's kind of I

1027
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:01,229
just can't understand the disconnect

1028
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:03,729
really be people listening maybe they

1029
00:45:06,359 --> 00:45:05,650
don't want to listen maybe but it's it's

1030
00:45:09,319 --> 00:45:06,369
very good

1031
00:45:11,249 --> 00:45:09,329
extremely good work and he should be

1032
00:45:14,390 --> 00:45:11,259
they should be praised for it not

1033
00:45:18,989 --> 00:45:14,400
criticized well there was apparently a

1034
00:45:23,789 --> 00:45:18,999
what looked like a fossil on on Mars but

1035
00:45:27,839 --> 00:45:23,799
the rover the rover sorry about that the

1036
00:45:31,439 --> 00:45:27,849
rover found it and then they destroyed

1037
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:31,449
it are you I don't know about I mean

1038
00:45:35,370 --> 00:45:33,249
obviously I read all these conspiracy

1039
00:45:37,019 --> 00:45:35,380
theories I don't like to get involved

1040
00:45:40,489 --> 00:45:37,029
too much in comes person series because

1041
00:45:42,749 --> 00:45:40,499
you know I've got enough on as it is yes

1042
00:45:44,609 --> 00:45:42,759
the you know where's the where's the

1043
00:45:48,779 --> 00:45:44,619
where can you find the proof unless I

1044
00:45:50,429 --> 00:45:48,789
mean I think there's a one of the things

1045
00:45:53,029 --> 00:45:50,439
that always amazing man written letters

1046
00:45:56,549 --> 00:45:53,039
to the London Times about this is that

1047
00:46:00,779 --> 00:45:56,559
NASA is sending these expensive Rovers

1048
00:46:03,209 --> 00:46:00,789
to planets and to cause a comments etc

1049
00:46:04,890 --> 00:46:03,219
and they're not looking for life now why

1050
00:46:06,449 --> 00:46:04,900
are they not looking for life like you

1051
00:46:08,729 --> 00:46:06,459
know any microbiologist can tell them

1052
00:46:11,370 --> 00:46:08,739
out to find life I mean they did this in

1053
00:46:15,299 --> 00:46:11,380
the 1970s with the biking issue and of

1054
00:46:17,399 --> 00:46:15,309
course there are people who suggest get

1055
00:46:20,249 --> 00:46:17,409
11 for example suggest that they did

1056
00:46:22,319 --> 00:46:20,259
demonstrate life on Mars and they kind

1057
00:46:24,959 --> 00:46:22,329
of overlooked it if you want to use that

1058
00:46:27,390 --> 00:46:24,969
expression now I don't know why that's

1059
00:46:29,969 --> 00:46:27,400
maybe it's political maybe it's kind of

1060
00:46:31,979 --> 00:46:29,979
something to do with the religious right

1061
00:46:34,169 --> 00:46:31,989
I don't know I don't I'm not party to

1062
00:46:35,729 --> 00:46:34,179
what they get up to but I would have

1063
00:46:37,319 --> 00:46:35,739
thought that they should spend more time

1064
00:46:39,749 --> 00:46:37,329
looking for life under the book they

1065
00:46:41,729 --> 00:46:39,759
they're working now on water follow the

1066
00:46:44,249 --> 00:46:41,739
water if you find water you may have

1067
00:46:46,409 --> 00:46:44,259
life well you know the argument to that

1068
00:46:48,149 --> 00:46:46,419
is well you found the water but maybe

1069
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:48,159
there's not life so why not look for the

1070
00:46:51,990 --> 00:46:50,890
life and this really as you can imagine

1071
00:46:54,089 --> 00:46:52,000
you can hear from my the tone in my

1072
00:46:56,549 --> 00:46:54,099
voice getting excited I get really

1073
00:46:58,349 --> 00:46:56,559
annoyed about this because I think the

1074
00:47:00,870 --> 00:46:58,359
American taxpayers who are funding NASA

1075
00:47:01,859 --> 00:47:00,880
want to know one thing about the cosmos

1076
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:01,869
is their life

1077
00:47:06,569 --> 00:47:03,970
great and they using all this taxpayers

1078
00:47:10,109 --> 00:47:06,579
money not to look for life now why is

1079
00:47:12,990 --> 00:47:10,119
that I don't know well I certainly want

1080
00:47:15,180 --> 00:47:13,000
to know I'm among the American taxpayers

1081
00:47:17,460 --> 00:47:15,190
who want to know what about you Kate I

1082
00:47:19,380 --> 00:47:17,470
would definitely like but I believe that

1083
00:47:21,779 --> 00:47:19,390
there is life so for me it's not even a

1084
00:47:23,549 --> 00:47:21,789
question you know the old UFO specialist

1085
00:47:25,650 --> 00:47:23,559
has no doubt but that there's life

1086
00:47:28,799 --> 00:47:25,660
elsewhere I mean just if you just take

1087
00:47:33,450 --> 00:47:28,809
the law of fractals alone there has to

1088
00:47:34,980 --> 00:47:33,460
be I mean it so I just think and I

1089
00:47:36,750 --> 00:47:34,990
really don't think you should waste a

1090
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:36,760
lot of your time and money arguing with

1091
00:47:40,349 --> 00:47:38,410
skeptics just plow ahead with what

1092
00:47:48,089 --> 00:47:40,359
you're doing and produce that one great

1093
00:47:51,299 --> 00:47:48,099
paper and then tell them all it's very

1094
00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:51,309
depressing and it yeah it does you know

1095
00:47:53,670 --> 00:47:51,730
I mean I

1096
00:47:55,589 --> 00:47:53,680
they came a point when I thought I might

1097
00:47:58,410 --> 00:47:55,599
be sucked from my university position

1098
00:48:00,390 --> 00:47:58,420
yeah and a lot of people yes I'm not

1099
00:48:02,880 --> 00:48:00,400
against special pleading but you know

1100
00:48:05,220 --> 00:48:02,890
the reality of this is the reality if

1101
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:05,230
you try and do anything outside the box

1102
00:48:10,620 --> 00:48:08,410
to use the expression you get a lot of

1103
00:48:13,109 --> 00:48:10,630
trouble and if you want to call me a

1104
00:48:15,420 --> 00:48:13,119
heretic heretics come in for a lot of

1105
00:48:17,309 --> 00:48:15,430
problems and I feel interesting heretics

1106
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:17,319
actually have done a lot of I'm

1107
00:48:20,549 --> 00:48:18,490
interested in history of science and

1108
00:48:23,430 --> 00:48:20,559
I've done a lot of research on heretics

1109
00:48:26,339 --> 00:48:23,440
for example Jack benveniste the memory

1110
00:48:28,710 --> 00:48:26,349
of water this idea that water may have a

1111
00:48:30,210 --> 00:48:28,720
memory that aids or me on the APPA the--

1112
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:30,220
although he never actually linked it

1113
00:48:35,999 --> 00:48:32,410
with homeopathy now I went over to Paris

1114
00:48:38,220 --> 00:48:36,009
and I met this guy and very very

1115
00:48:40,230 --> 00:48:38,230
charming he recently died unfortunately

1116
00:48:41,759 --> 00:48:40,240
but he said you know Milton I can't

1117
00:48:43,799 --> 00:48:41,769
understand this he said I was one of the

1118
00:48:46,650 --> 00:48:43,809
top scientists in France

1119
00:48:48,870 --> 00:48:46,660
Legion of Honor or whatever and then I

1120
00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:48,880
did an experiment but suddenly I'm a bad

1121
00:48:54,690 --> 00:48:51,730
scientist why why am ia bad scientist

1122
00:48:56,670 --> 00:48:54,700
this happens though many times I think

1123
00:48:59,099 --> 00:48:56,680
it's just because science has become its

1124
00:49:01,019 --> 00:48:59,109
own religion and religion and politics

1125
00:49:03,059 --> 00:49:01,029
always go hand in hand and when you

1126
00:49:04,620 --> 00:49:03,069
threaten the power structure you're out

1127
00:49:06,810 --> 00:49:04,630
yeah well

1128
00:49:09,660 --> 00:49:06,820
as you say certainly money is a major

1129
00:49:11,160 --> 00:49:09,670
factor I mean grants have always been a

1130
00:49:12,900 --> 00:49:11,170
major problem major thing

1131
00:49:14,340 --> 00:49:12,910
factor in the United States I mean

1132
00:49:17,910 --> 00:49:14,350
obviously science is doing extremely

1133
00:49:20,220 --> 00:49:17,920
well so it does work but in this country

1134
00:49:22,380 --> 00:49:20,230
we are getting more and more organized

1135
00:49:24,590 --> 00:49:22,390
around money for example in in my

1136
00:49:27,630 --> 00:49:24,600
university and most university in the UK

1137
00:49:30,270 --> 00:49:27,640
youngsuk I find this up seeing young

1138
00:49:31,860 --> 00:49:30,280
scientists taken on and if they don't

1139
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:31,870
get a big grant within three years

1140
00:49:36,720 --> 00:49:34,330
they're sacked hmm now the reason I

1141
00:49:38,940 --> 00:49:36,730
think that's obscene is it because you

1142
00:49:42,270 --> 00:49:38,950
know scientists have to develop they

1143
00:49:43,710 --> 00:49:42,280
have to mature sure like saintil

1144
00:49:45,240 --> 00:49:43,720
Leonardo DaVinci if you don't come up

1145
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:45,250
with the Mona Lisa in three years you're

1146
00:49:54,830 --> 00:49:50,050
sacked you know well we we agree with

1147
00:49:57,960 --> 00:49:54,840
you on that that idea that money has

1148
00:50:01,760 --> 00:49:57,970
while it has helped science it has also

1149
00:50:05,300 --> 00:50:01,770
in in other ways destroyed the

1150
00:50:08,100 --> 00:50:05,310
entrepreneurial single person like

1151
00:50:10,350 --> 00:50:08,110
working on something well that's they

1152
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:10,360
used to call an attic scientists and

1153
00:50:14,670 --> 00:50:12,010
that's I would say you're the classic

1154
00:50:16,500 --> 00:50:14,680
example of one you have an idea it's

1155
00:50:19,350 --> 00:50:16,510
you've proven it and you've used just

1156
00:50:20,940 --> 00:50:19,360
basic basic tools to do it well you know

1157
00:50:22,530 --> 00:50:20,950
most of the most of the major

1158
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:22,540
developments in science have come

1159
00:50:28,170 --> 00:50:24,490
through there in dippity chance disk um

1160
00:50:29,940 --> 00:50:28,180
you know if you try and plan to find a

1161
00:50:31,770 --> 00:50:29,950
cure for cancer chances are you won't

1162
00:50:33,990 --> 00:50:31,780
find it I can almost predict that

1163
00:50:35,400 --> 00:50:34,000
someone will find the cause or a cure

1164
00:50:35,940 --> 00:50:35,410
for cancer when they're looking for

1165
00:50:39,330 --> 00:50:35,950
something else

1166
00:50:42,720 --> 00:50:39,340
mm-hmm they're just working on I don't

1167
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:42,730
I'll spiders knees yeah the work on

1168
00:50:46,380 --> 00:50:44,890
spiders knees and they find the a this

1169
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:46,390
looks like cancer or something you know

1170
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:49,450
that is how the most most of the

1171
00:50:53,220 --> 00:50:51,010
developments are made but modern science

1172
00:50:56,730 --> 00:50:53,230
goes against that it wants to predict it

1173
00:50:59,430 --> 00:50:56,740
wants to control organize it becomes

1174
00:51:01,890 --> 00:50:59,440
some kind of you know organizational

1175
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:01,900
bureaucratic bureaucracy yeah rather

1176
00:51:06,540 --> 00:51:04,570
than this beautiful wonder of people

1177
00:51:09,990 --> 00:51:06,550
just bumping into things you know mm-hmm

1178
00:51:13,350 --> 00:51:10,000
for the purpose of curiosity what Curia

1179
00:51:15,930 --> 00:51:13,360
where curiosity takes you right now I am

1180
00:51:18,220 --> 00:51:15,940
afraid that our time with shattered

1181
00:51:22,780 --> 00:51:18,230
reality is basic

1182
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:22,790
/ well I was just warming up though well

1183
00:51:27,940 --> 00:51:24,290
we would love for you to come back on

1184
00:51:31,720 --> 00:51:27,950
sometime and if I was a not an associate

1185
00:51:34,750 --> 00:51:31,730
member but a full member of the sse that

1186
00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:34,760
is if I were Emma Craddock accredited

1187
00:51:41,830 --> 00:51:37,130
scientist well I would certainly invite

1188
00:51:46,720 --> 00:51:41,840
you to one of of those those conventions

1189
00:51:49,390 --> 00:51:46,730
suppose I let my membership lapse and

1190
00:51:51,430 --> 00:51:49,400
you know I used to go to a lot of

1191
00:51:53,170 --> 00:51:51,440
conferences and a lot of the time I was

1192
00:51:55,060 --> 00:51:53,180
pretty well bored because I would hear

1193
00:51:57,910 --> 00:51:55,070
the same old stuff but I went to these

1194
00:51:59,950 --> 00:51:57,920
conferences and I would go if they start

1195
00:52:01,630 --> 00:51:59,960
at 7:00 in the morning I'd go at 7:00

1196
00:52:04,450 --> 00:52:01,640
and I stay there until 10 o'clock

1197
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:04,460
because the soul full of amazing stuff

1198
00:52:09,130 --> 00:52:06,650
it isn't enough didn't always believe

1199
00:52:12,810 --> 00:52:09,140
some of it but it was unbelievable

1200
00:52:16,030 --> 00:52:12,820
fantastic range of very exciting ideas

1201
00:52:19,450 --> 00:52:16,040
and to me as well as a layperson it's a

1202
00:52:22,780 --> 00:52:19,460
very exciting event to go to and to have

1203
00:52:25,810 --> 00:52:22,790
my thoughts broadened and meet a lot of

1204
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:25,820
wonderful guests foreshadowed reality ya

1205
00:52:30,810 --> 00:52:28,610
know you know to my mind that's the kind

1206
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:30,820
of science that should be done more of

1207
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:33,170
more money and more interest should go

1208
00:52:39,070 --> 00:52:36,770
into it and stop you know stop this kind

1209
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:39,080
of mundane inside the box stuff that

1210
00:52:43,810 --> 00:52:41,570
people are doing yeah this sort of

1211
00:52:46,540 --> 00:52:43,820
glorified technicians and not really in

1212
00:52:48,220 --> 00:52:46,550
good investigators anymore expression

1213
00:52:51,430 --> 00:52:48,230
English expression called journeyman you

1214
00:52:56,170 --> 00:52:51,440
know yeah yeah yeah what a lot of my

1215
00:52:57,730 --> 00:52:56,180
journey man who careerists you know it's

1216
00:53:01,900 --> 00:52:57,740
finished I think I mean I'm an old man

1217
00:53:03,820 --> 00:53:01,910
getting probably an old man got but you

1218
00:53:07,030 --> 00:53:03,830
know to me science is a wonder

1219
00:53:09,130 --> 00:53:07,040
it's a fascination is it's beautiful and

1220
00:53:11,650 --> 00:53:09,140
often I see that it's turning into a

1221
00:53:13,900 --> 00:53:11,660
regular churning out of the yep you know

1222
00:53:16,150 --> 00:53:13,910
the stock ideas and the stock responses

1223
00:53:20,610 --> 00:53:16,160
mm-hmm it's pretty sad

1224
00:53:24,340 --> 00:53:20,620
I agree thank you so much for being on

1225
00:53:27,100 --> 00:53:24,350
shattered reality podcast and our

1226
00:53:30,820 --> 00:53:27,110
intentions are for you to prosper and to

1227
00:53:31,870 --> 00:53:30,830
get some somebody somebody's in the

1228
00:53:35,230 --> 00:53:31,880
barrel out there

1229
00:53:37,779 --> 00:53:35,240
to do replicate studies for you and we

1230
00:53:39,940 --> 00:53:37,789
couldn't wish that more so I thought if

1231
00:53:43,509 --> 00:53:39,950
everybody wants to contact me for some

1232
00:53:45,370 --> 00:53:43,519
advice I have no money but we don't need

1233
00:53:48,249 --> 00:53:45,380
a lot of money but advice I'll certainly

1234
00:53:49,420 --> 00:53:48,259
provide well thank you so much and we're

1235
00:53:53,710 --> 00:53:49,430
gonna say goodbye now

1236
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:53,720
yeah dr. Wainwright thank you so much I

1237
00:54:02,079 --> 00:53:57,130
wish you best of luck in your future

1238
00:54:05,829 --> 00:54:02,089
thank you thank you okay so that is

1239
00:54:07,359 --> 00:54:05,839
really a wonderful yeah I had a bunch of

1240
00:54:09,039 --> 00:54:07,369
questions I would have liked have asked

1241
00:54:11,950 --> 00:54:09,049
him oh yeah we ran out of time I'll have

1242
00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:11,960
to get him back on Bobi fascinating to

1243
00:54:14,829 --> 00:54:13,490
think that they rained viruses and

1244
00:54:19,450 --> 00:54:14,839
that's what actually got rid of the

1245
00:54:21,249 --> 00:54:19,460
dinosaurs it could but then I think the

1246
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:21,259
other question that would have come up

1247
00:54:26,529 --> 00:54:24,650
would in that if this much life forms

1248
00:54:28,329 --> 00:54:26,539
are raining constantly we really should

1249
00:54:30,700 --> 00:54:28,339
see a lot more different life forms

1250
00:54:32,589 --> 00:54:30,710
today but then maybe we do maybe we just

1251
00:54:36,309 --> 00:54:32,599
haven't found them well the ones that

1252
00:54:38,230 --> 00:54:36,319
originally may have come down when the

1253
00:54:40,870 --> 00:54:38,240
earth first cooled as he had mentioned

1254
00:54:43,569 --> 00:54:40,880
they were able to prosper right

1255
00:54:45,309 --> 00:54:43,579
immediately because they were it was a

1256
00:54:46,990 --> 00:54:45,319
fertile ground and they weren't eaten

1257
00:54:50,319 --> 00:54:47,000
they weren't eaten but today many of

1258
00:54:51,970 --> 00:54:50,329
these things could be eaten hmm and I'm

1259
00:54:55,690 --> 00:54:51,980
I'm gonna have to write in our show

1260
00:54:58,839 --> 00:54:55,700
notes who the fellow was whose name just

1261
00:55:01,660 --> 00:54:58,849
escapes me who speculated on spores

1262
00:55:05,829 --> 00:55:01,670
coming in the same way and I know that

1263
00:55:07,509 --> 00:55:05,839
sir Fred Hoyle speculated on that too so

1264
00:55:09,609 --> 00:55:07,519
we'll put that in the show notes and I I

1265
00:55:12,339 --> 00:55:09,619
apologize for not remembering the

1266
00:55:15,099 --> 00:55:12,349
gentleman's name at the moment so what's

1267
00:55:18,249 --> 00:55:15,109
coming up next for us Papa - papa papa

1268
00:55:20,170 --> 00:55:18,259
drum roll May 20th and 21st I believe

1269
00:55:21,579 --> 00:55:20,180
well it's May 20th with the rain date of

1270
00:55:25,390 --> 00:55:21,589
May 21st okay

1271
00:55:30,009 --> 00:55:25,400
we will be up at PI beautiful downtown

1272
00:55:32,940 --> 00:55:30,019
Pineville New York and both Kate and I

1273
00:55:45,329 --> 00:55:32,950
Ferruccio will be there as well as our

1274
00:55:50,519 --> 00:55:48,390
but we'd love to see you there we would

1275
00:55:52,549 --> 00:55:50,529
love to see you if you are in the New

1276
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:52,559
York New Jersey Connecticut Pennsylvania

1277
00:55:59,969 --> 00:55:56,650
area you should be accessible to this

1278
00:56:02,160 --> 00:55:59,979
wonderful UFO it's sort of fun it's a

1279
00:56:05,849 --> 00:56:02,170
lot of fun good food and and there's

1280
00:56:08,910 --> 00:56:05,859
plenty of food local vendors and the

1281
00:56:10,380 --> 00:56:08,920
Flying Saucer diner that's incumbent

1282
00:56:13,709 --> 00:56:10,390
source of whatever it is up there

1283
00:56:17,279 --> 00:56:13,719
wonderful places to be and be seen and

1284
00:56:20,640 --> 00:56:17,289
where you are UFO costume if you like I

1285
00:56:24,599 --> 00:56:20,650
will just be my normal alien self no

1286
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:24,609
costume needed okay all right so I guess

1287
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:28,690
that's it okay so shall we say goodbye